r1ch.net forums
* Home Help Search Login Register
r1ch.net  |  r1ch.net stuff  |  R1Q2  |  Topic: q2advance and timers
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
Print
Author Topic: q2advance and timers  (Read 28072 times)
Digital
Member

Posts: 31



« on: May 01, 2005, 01:20:41 am »

From european scene POV q2advance is a cheat. Automated timers are unacceptable.
Logged
optimizer
Member

Posts: 35


« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2005, 09:49:02 am »

From european scene POV q2advance is a cheat. Automated timers are unacceptable.
indeed
Logged
ep
Guest
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2005, 08:09:56 pm »

indeed

Yes, however in the US alot of people consider any type of timers cheats (particularly the oldschoolers and people who play other games besides q2).  I find myself in this group, but the problem is timers basically cant be stopped without lanning with a person, which i why i decided to just even the playing field.  I think it's a better situation to basically remove the advantage that timers give the people who choose to use them, since there is no way to stop them because of things like winamp global hotkeys.
Logged
ipool
Member

Posts: 30



« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2005, 01:43:45 am »

why not put an aimbot in q2advance to eliminate the advantage ppl have from practicing thair aim? Wink
j/k, but imho automatic timers are far different from "normal" timers as a person has to *think* about using it, and should not be included in any quake2 client.
Logged
Digital
Member

Posts: 31



« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2005, 03:34:12 am »

ipool hit the jackpot. In Euro Cups/Leagues automated timers are banned while wav's are ok since people manually start them which requires skill to keep the time accurate. Art of timing comes with practise, not from some enhanced Q2-client that does the job for you...
Logged
ep
Guest
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2005, 02:24:23 pm »

ipool hit the jackpot. In Euro Cups/Leagues automated timers are banned while wav's are ok since people manually start them which requires skill to keep the time accurate. Art of timing comes with practise, not from some enhanced Q2-client that does the job for you...

i disagree, imo there is no skill in just pushing a button, real skill is learning to time items in your head.  if you notice, not qcon or any other tourney (except maybe some recent euro tourneys since q2 has been pretty much dead) don't allow timers.  Timers are also not allowed in other games, because it's just too much of an advantage in 1vs1.
Logged
Digital
Member

Posts: 31



« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2005, 06:10:58 pm »

What I stated has been the case in Euroleagues since I started back in -99 so this rule has applied here much longer than recent tourneys. And about the skillpart.. Pressing a button is not skill, being at the right place at the right time is (so you get the time). Those that manage to do it are the real timers. Anyone can press a button but only a few can move so they get full advantage of it.

Sad to hear Q2 is dead back there but in here I haven't seen any change past few years. It's not like it used to be but number of clans participating in leagues/cups have remained the same for years so Q2 is definately alive and kicking in Europe. Personally I've played more leagues/cups during 2002-2004 than 1999-2001.

I see you (and the majority of US-scene) are vs timers which makes me a bit surprised you would implement such a feature in q2advance. This leveling the playingfield isn't a good argument imo. Like ipool said then you should add aimbot and wallhack to fully get the same "tools" for all players. I think the reason wav-timers have a green light in Europe is they are done with q2's own consol command, no need for any external program.

play
Type: Function

Syntax: play (filename)

Description: Play a sound file.

Note: This command adds a sound/ prefix directory when executed, just keep this in mind when playing your own sound files.

Example:
play doors/dr1_strt.wav
play items/n_health.wav
Logged
ep
Guest
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 02:41:46 am »

yes, however they require 3rd party files, and are not a part of the original game.  The play command was not included so people could use timers; and just because you can abuse it for this doesn't mean you should.  Notice timer's are not allowed in lan tournaments for any game?  It's because it's pretty much a universally accepted fact that timers are cheats everywhere except in the european quake2 scene.  Unfortunately we have some bad apple q2'ers in the us that will do anything to win that use them, and try to use the europeans as justification, which is why i felt i had to level the playing field.

According to your logic, spiked models are 100% ok, because you can simply use a console command to load a spiked model giving you an advantage because you can see where players are through walls.  Hell, you really don't even need a console command assuming you just replace the models instead of using the link command.  Saying that just because they are easily used because of the play command is just a copout.  Guess what, timers give a definate advantage over someone not using them, and thus are cheating.  It takes alot of skill to know exactly when an item is going to spawn without the use of timers, not to mention is prone to error as you have to keep track of it while doing other things.  Sure, it may take a little bit more skill because you have to press the button to activate the timer, but this isnt very hard.  It take's more skill to toggle a wallhack than it to jsut leave it on all the time, but this doesnt make it fair.  After using timers for about 5 minutes it becomes a subconcious action; timing in your head never becomes like this.  You are simply taking a skill out of the game, so wether you have to press a button to do it, or it's automatically done, it's the same thing.  Look at it this way, play the game without the timers, and notice how much different and harder the game becomes?  It suddenly takes alot more skill to control the map, which is what dm is about.

Wallhacks and aimbots aren't quite the same, because they can be stopped.  However windows doesn't allow an app to gain complete control over the keyboard(and it shouldnt, as it would then require a reboot if the app hung), making them impossible to stop.  Wallhacks and bots on the other hand can be detected/prevented.  Personally I don't think automatic timers should be included either, but I see no other way to combat them; when i suggested that i remove the play command people started threatening me with using winamp global hotkeys and other programs.  So, I did some research and there really is no way to stop timers, which is why i leveled the playing field.
Logged
ipool
Member

Posts: 30



« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 06:48:51 am »

You defend your point of view very well - in proving timers are cheats. Lets say for sake of argument that they really are cheats, there is still no way you can convince someone that including cheats in your anti-cheat client is a good thing Wink
Maybe providing timers in a .pak with anticheat - so it is available to anyone... but automatic on-screen timers o.O omg!
My reasoning on this is the fact that youre only making easyer for everyone to cheat - which cant be a good thing, no matter how you put it.
Personally i dont use the play command to time items, i watch the time-left on screen and calculate when the item will respawn.. on screen timers kinda nullify this skill..
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 06:57:57 am by ipool » Logged
wision
Member

Posts: 237



« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 08:55:15 am »

"yes, however they require 3rd party files, and are not a part of the original game" right... but in original q2 is 10s timer... so timing weapon/quad is easy... just have to press key more times
Logged
daelmun
Guest
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 09:07:14 am »

I know ep despise timers with all his heart, and I can certainly relate to the fact that timers give you an unfair advantage over players who do not use them.  For instance, take two equally skilled players in every aspect of the game and place them on ztn2dm3 (the rage), give one of them timers so he can count to the exact second the spawn of vital weapons to control and the redarmor and even mega. Who do you think will win? But since everyone uses timers in Europe as it is commonly accepted, I don't know if anyone really think of that it gives you quite an advantage over people playing "vanilla quake2". I personally believe timing is a part of the game that is supposed to be in your head, then the timing skill will be universal for any game you play. But that's just me.

The argument about timers being valid or not aside, the fact is as ep says, it is impossible to stop them. I mean, taken to the extreme all you really need is an alarm-clock that counts down the item spawns with some fancy device to trigger them by footpedals or something similar. You can't really take the wallhack and aimbots completely out of the quake2 universe like that. Stopping timers and stopping wallhacks/aimbots are two quite  different things.

And when timers are gonna be around anyway, I don't really get why automatically triggered timers really can be considered cheats. The timing in q2advance doesn't remove "skill" from the timing in my eyes. The point that Digital said about "Pressing a button is not skill, being at the right place at the right time is (so you get the time)". As far as I remember (correct me if I'm wrong), you actually need to hear the sound of the item pickup to trigger the automatic timers in q2advance. This means you need to be at the right place at the right time to make timers work in q2advance too. Another point is that q2advance times EVERY armor pickup, meaning that it times the jacketarmor on rage as well as the red armor. You actually need to pay a little attention to what armor are being picked up in what order. With wav timers you can decide what items you time, meaning it is easier to keep track of what items are being timed.

Instances where I see the automated timers give advantage over manual is where you actually hit the timing key too early/late, cause the automated timers are always 100% correct. Somtimes it is that .1 of a second that matters who gets quad. A combination of using wav timers and using the q2advance timers to adjust down to the second when the item will spawn would certainly give you quite the powerhouse when it comes to timing. But is that .1 second considered a cheat, but not the difference between someone timing with a timer and someone timing in the head missing by 3 seconds on the 20 seconds it takes for the armor to spawn? If so, then you have a valid point I guess.

On another note, Q2advance does not automatically time weapons nor does it time megahealth. It is really hard playing 1v1 versus someone who times down to the second the spawn of vital armors and megahealth and important weapons on a map when you are not doing the same. So people using wav timers still have the advantage there.

And with wav timers you can also time items you dont hear/see, just by knowing your enemy is camping the RA and as your RA timer counts down to 0, just press it again knowing your opponent most likely picked it up. Not to mention the way timers are used in teams, where several teammembers time quad by seeing the "QUAD 60" teammessage, hitting the quadtimer button. In q2advance as I said earlier, you need to actually hear the item being picked up in order to start them, if there is only one guy hearing the quad pickup it is only one guy on the team that has it timed automatically down to the .1 of a second.

I'm personally not a q2advance fanboy, I find it too hard for new people to use without help for tweaking the config, as there are so many settings you need to turn off in order to make it look like the way you used to play in orginal quake2. But I must say to call the client a cheat is to aim a little off the target in my eyes. But then again, it's just one mans opinion.
Logged
daelmun
Guest
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 10:09:20 am »

Isn't this the wrong forum to discuss timers and q2advance anyway?  smiley

Anyway, I personally think it is an pretty intresting debate for a change, and would really like to hear how it's done in other games. I don't play any games at competitive level and seeing how it is done in other games would be intresting. And wasn't xania the client used for a long time, didn't that client have autmated timers? What was the reasoning behind it being used in the first place if automated timers are cheats? And I certainly can relate to ipool, that use the time-remaining to time items, that's how it should be done instead of using wav timers in the first place. And finally, the big question: what would Thresh said about all this?  tongue

Just hope it doesn't end in a flame war evil

On a more personal note, I'm mainly opposing the use of timers in 1v1 btw, in teams I don't really care if I play someone using timers or not. But in 1v1 it's so easy to tell, and nothing is more frustrating than someone coming out of nowhere stealing armors and weapons at the exact second they spawn just to run off again never to be seen for the rest of the game (hiding somewhere very dark). And I promise I don't care if my opponent miss the armor by .1 of a second cause he is using wav timers instead q2advance timers, I wont really applaud his timing skills regardless to be honest.

That's it from me, time to go back to obscurity.
Logged
R1CH
Administrator
Member

Posts: 2625



« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 12:40:40 pm »

Another thing is the effort/benefit ratio. Previously timers required you to construct or otherwise search/download appropriate .wav files, bind your keys for each different type of item, press them whenever they are picked up... for the average player, they probably won't go to that much trouble just to time an item in a friendly FFA/1v1 scenario. When you provide essentially a 'Timers On/Off' setting many people will be inclined to flip it on just to get the benefit with no effort.

I used to have a quad timer .wav some years ago but since lost it and can't be bothered to remake, timing items isn't what the game is about to me. But the truth is, timing items does give you an advantage and when there are features purposefully added to make a client have advantages that other clients do not then they become a cheat. I personally would not want to play a 1v1 against someone using q2a because it's pretty much certain that they will be using timers and aren't playing for fun.

The official q2advance forum still refers to it as "holywater" and the last post is almost two months ago. I think it's safe to say that the level of discussion wouldn't quite be the same as if it were posted here, so I don't mind at all. Perhaps I'll make this the r1ch.net Q2 forum instead of R1Q2 Smiley.
Logged
ep
Guest
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 02:50:56 pm »

r1ch, i agree, i wouldn't want to play someone using q2a's timers if i didn't have timers either; in the same way i don't want to play someone using wav timers if i don't have them.  q2a is for people to use when they want to play against someone in a fair game, which is why i included the timers.  I personally have never used wav timers, because I think it is wrong; but i have also lost alot of games because of this which is why i decided to do something about it.  I would absolutely love to get rid of timers, but windows api makes it completely impossible.

The whole point is really to level the playing field, which is what makes the game fun.  Sure i don't agree with using timers personally, but at least i dont feel cheated when i lose to someone using it, because they dont have any advantage over me; and I know alot of people feel the same way.  I prefer to use the game clock to time items as well, as it's what I did in the oldschool days of quake2 and in quake3.  And daelmun, since you are interested in timers in other games i'll share a piece of quake3 history.  Quake3 was played without timers from the start; at some point someone figured out how to make timers through the scripting system.  The timer issue immediately came up, and was pretty much universally accepted that it was a cheat and the use of scripts was restricted in osp(the mod used for tdm and 1vs1) so script timers couldnt be used.  Timers were considered cheats at least in the oldschool days of quake2, and are considered cheating in every other game.  They are just too much of an advantage to not do anything about.  I say if you can't do anything about them, take the advantage away from the people using them; and i feel i have taken the only route for this.  I am definately open to suggestions, but I havn't heard any other suggestions that make it fair.

As far as the effort/benefit ratio r1ch, I somewhat disagree with you on the ease of use of wav timers.  Sure, constructing your own isn't as easy as a console command, but I don't think this is quite a fair comparison.  If people didn't publicly offer paks with the timers and scripts already set up to use them, it would require more than a download, but this isnt the case.  The wav timers at this point are as easy as downloading a file, which is the same ease of use as someone downloading q2a and using it.  Even if someone still has to bind keys for the timers, they still aren't constructing their own timers.  IMO constructing your own timers would include making your own wav files.  Anyone could program their own timers into a q2 client just like anyone could make their own wav files, which imo takes about the same amount of work.

As far as someone not playing for fun, I think it's actually the other way around.  To me, the people that used the wav timers in the first place and made this an issue are the ones who werent playing just for fun.  Competition is about having a level playing field, which is what I have tried to provide.  And with how some people use wav timers r1ch, I don't think you'd see any difference in a person's play between them using the q2a timers and them using the wav timers.  Both ways give pretty much the same advantage because each method has it's own advantages and disadvantages.  IMO adding the automatic timers makes it more fun for the casual player playing purely for fun, because it gives them the ability to fight back against someone using timers against them if they need to without requiring them to go into the seedy underworld that exists for people trying to get any advantage they can over someone.  When i see someone willing to scour the web for every last advantage they can get by adding and modifying files, it makes me wonder how far they are really willing to go.  If you want an advantage over other players so badly that you are unwilling to stop using wav timers, how are you any different from someone who refuses to stop using a wallhack for an advantage?      Sure, I think quake2 is alot more fun when neither party is using timers; but I think it becomes alot less fun when 1 person has timers and the playing field isn't level.  I'll end my comment with an except from the merrium webster dictionary:

Main Entry: 1fair
Pronunciation: 'far, 'fer
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English fager, fair, from Old English fæger; akin to Old High German fagar beautiful

6 a : marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with>
Logged
ep
Guest
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 02:59:29 pm »

"yes, however they require 3rd party files, and are not a part of the original game" right... but in original q2 is 10s timer... so timing weapon/quad is easy... just have to press key more times

hrmm, i think you're a little mixed up and making wrong assumptions here.  Was the 10s countdown included to be used to time items, or simply included because of the countdown to gamestart?  Smiley

again, the play command was not intended for timing items, otherwise id would have included 20s, 30s, and 60s countdowns as well.  If you really wanted i'm sure you could scour the paks and find some wav file that happens to be 20s long and use it as a timer; but again, just because you can abuse the system doesn't mean you should.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
Print
r1ch.net  |  r1ch.net stuff  |  R1Q2  |  Topic: q2advance and timers
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines